speaker 1: Cios have long been expected to be the technical gurus of the enterprise and service to the business, but today they're visionaries, evangelists and change agents who are the leaders in tech, successfully challenging the status quo and driving transformational change across the business. This is tech fluential, a new podcast series hosted by custom content from wj and Deloitte. I'm Brian kemenetsky, senior editor, custom content from wsj, with our host, Lou de Lorenzo, principal at Deloitte Consulting llp. Lou, it's great to talk with you again. Brian, it's great to be with you. We're into our sixth episode now of tech influential, but I'm sure some people are listening for the first time. So can you explain to us what it means to be tech fluential .
speaker 2: and why it matters? Listen, I don't think there's a better time to be a technology executive than right now. At the heart of every business strategy is a technology strategy. And so helping to make that front and center for people. It's not somebody's job, it's not a department, but it's really understanding how to bring this concept to life and putting in the hands of everybody that works at the company regardless of what they do. To me.
speaker 1: that's what it means to be ential. On the last episode of tech influential, you spoke with rohanammine, chief product officer at chase, and Jamile farshi, evp, cso and cto at equiquefax. Both of them talked about the cyber resiliency conversation at the board level and the ability to bridge the technical and business aspects of the boardroom conversation. How does that influence who's going to be appearing on today's episode?
speaker 2: Brian, I couldn't be more excited to have Sarah Tucker and Jim Fowler on tecfluential. Jim is the evp and Chief Technology Officer at nationwide, and Sarah serves on the board of directors at nationwide and at American Electric Power as well as service corporation international. They're going to talk about the dynamics and the interplay between technology executives and the board, how the board tech agenda is evolving and the things that are top of mind for them. This, in many cases, is a critical step as they look to progress in their career. And so I think there's going to be tremendous insights coming .
speaker 1: out of the conversation. All right, let's get right to it. Here's deloitd's Lou de Lorenzo with Sarah Tucker and Jim Fowler.
speaker 2: Sarah and Jim, thank you so much for being with us here on tech fluential. We're excited to have you here. One of the topics that is top of mind for our listeners, whether they're tech executives or not, is how to develop a more meaningful relationship with a board of directors. And we're thrilled to have you share your perspectives with us over the course of the program today. Happy to be here.
speaker 3: Thanks for having us. Well.
speaker 2: why don't we jump in? So would love to hear from you both a little bit about yourselves and your backgrounds, but more importantly, how long you've been working together as we set the stage here. Sir, would you like to go first?
speaker 4: Sure, Lou. Thank you for that question. Jim and I joined nationwide at the same time, 2018. And I got to know Jim through my assignment on the what was then the business transformation and Technology Committee. Jim came on as our new cio. I came on as a new board member. Our relationship has evolved in two ways. The first is, once I was asked to chair that committee, Jim and I rethought the purpose of the committee. And originally, Jim and I both benefited from the fact that the board had created it to oversee a large capital investment in core systems modernization. And Jim and I were looking at what was happening in the industry at the time with the launch of the insured tax with the fintechand. We sat back and thought, what is it we can do to reimagine the work of the bttc, now renamed the business and innovation and Technology Committee, the bitc? And so we work together, I'd say, Jim henand glove to figure out what is it we need to do? But at the core of our conversation, Lou, was really how do we make sure that technology is integrated with business strategy so that it's not technology for technology sake, but rather, what do investments in technology enable the company to accomplish these a either business results? The second way it's changed is just the way we relate to each other in that time. As we're leading the charge for this, we've become sanity checks for each other. It is important that we keep an eye on what's happening outside our company, inside our company and then figuring out how do we winthrough all of that and make what's relevant come to life in the board meeting at either the committee level or at the board level. And then frankly, I'm a big fan of Jim a. Fowler, and I just want na be a resource for him as he grows professionally and personally within nationwide, but also externally as he takes leadership roles in the industry and outside.
speaker 2: Sarah, thank you. That have that tight coupling between business strategy and technology strategy innovation at the board level is pretty special. Jim, would love to hear a little bit more about your perspective on your relationship with Sarah and how you .
speaker 3: got started together. You know, I think Sarah covered it well. The relationship that we've built over the kind of seven years that we've both been in our roles has been really important for my development. I talk about it as a mentorship sometimes, she says tormentorship, but she keeps me honest and she makes sure that I am talking in terms that matter from a board perspective. She's making sure that I'm bringing a value equation that in a risk discussion that needs to happen at the board level and that I don't get lost in the technology. And again, we can lean on each other as we're going through different initiatives or projects or investments or working with different risk issues that we've got across the company.
speaker 2: You both hit on a core topic that we spent a lot of time here on tecential discussing, and it relates to this notion of how important it is for technology executives to be bilingual. So to be able to have that orientation towards commercial value to business value to business strategy and not get lost in the technology as you described. How do you see the relationship between .
speaker 4: cios and boards evolving? One of the things that I've seen change over time is it's gone from a Compliance Board function, which is how do we make sure we have sufficient oversight over the risk that's introduced by technology and maybe once a year, checks on how we were doing to a real board appetite for what are we doing to stay abreast of the trends in technology and making sure that we're well versed in it. I think the other thing that's happened though, the more technology gets integrated into the business strategy and the more that cios or cfo's can demonstrate in the boardroom that they can talk about the business problems that are getting addressed, the capabilities that are introduced and then the business results that it turns into, then I think the relationship between the board and the cxo slash cio changes. And so it's that dynamic. And every board that I'm on is on a different level of maturity on that relationship from that oversight of risk towards Res, fully understanding the integration that bilingual that you talked about and the importance of what the cio brings to the table.
speaker 3: Luu, I would add to that discussion that you really have to, as a cio or as a technology leader, make sure you're demonstrating the value of the initiatives. But I'm going to talk about it in three levels because there's really kind of three elements of the discussion that we have with the board. The first is, is operational, and we go in every board meeting with a set of operational metrics. And I got to be honest, that's where I hope to spend the least amount of time because if my team is doing their job well, that's going to show that things are running pretty well. And so for me, spending a lot of time in the boardroom is actually a defect for us if that's where we have to spend our time. But you've got to get that right. The second is really talking about the value of the investments that we're making. One of the things the board wants to make sure is that when we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars in some cases on key investments, that we really can demonstrate the value that the business is going na get from those investments. And that's where I hope to spend time convincing the board that they're making good investments and that we've got the best interest of our members and our customers at heart in those investments. And then the third is really around research and development and really giving a forward looking view that's kind of three years, five years, ten years out about where technology is going and the opportunity that that's going na have for the business, for our customers and how we see that evolving the the overall business strategy and the impact it's going to have in those spaces. And so that's the dialogue, those three elements that I feel like you have to be having on a regular basis, and you're hopefully .
speaker 4: wearing it on the second two, not the first one. I would add at the board level, Jim hit the three spot on. There's one element that I wanna make sure gets covered here, which is succession planning in the cxo cio suite. So much happens in this space, making sure that we're developing our executives behind Jim to make sure that we not only have a successor to Jim, but we also have business leaders that can step into the p and l jobs or the larger jobs that we have at the company. So it's important for some portion of the board to understand what talent we have and then what development opportunities are happening for the members of Jim's team.
speaker 3: And to that end, every board meeting is an interview for those candidates. We try to make sure we're putting them in front of the board so that the board becomes comfortable that we've got a good succession plan behind us.
speaker 2: No one ever forgets their first board meeting, right? And hopefully, it's a positive experience. Talk a little bit about how to prepare or how you prepare your teams, especially the first go around that they've got some leading practices or just ways to make them sharp, alert, answer the question, answer the mail and at the same time, manage any anxiety or nerves they might have going into that situation.
speaker 3: I think the first thing that I coach my team is that you have to start from a strategic alignment to business goals. We have with nationwide today three overarching priorities around financial stability, around customer centricity and around operational excellence. And my conversation with my team is every conversation needs to start in one or more of those pillars because technology for technology sake is not value creation. It's when you can show how it's going to impact one of those three business pillars for us. So that's why I tell them to start the conversation, is make sure you're rooting it into the business outcomes and the strategy of the business units that you're supporting. The second is make sure that you can articulate the value that you're bringing to that business and to that strategy. The third is around risk mitigation. I mean, that is part of what the board's responsibility is. So we've got to help them understand how are we managing risks. I will say we've evolved away from this just being a discussion with the board on cybersecurity. It's a more fulsome conversation on risks of resiliency, of cybersecurity, of technology obsolescence, of being beat to the market with technology from a product perspective or from a distribution perspective. And then lastly, you got to be able to talk about the financial implications. You need to be able to understand how your company makes money, how your customers make money and how what you're doing from a technology perspective is helping that part of the process. So making sure that you can really get in and understand the financial implications of what you're doing.
speaker 2: if you don't mind. I mean, you talked about succession planning being critical, and Jim mentioned this could be an interview every time you go in. What do you look for from a talent .
speaker 4: perspective during these conversations? The first thing is something that Jim talked on, which is do they end up getting lost in the capabilities of the technology that's being funded? Or are they able to rise above it and talk to the strategy of what the company is trying to accomplish and hit on what is it that this solution will solve and what is it that this investment will bring in terms of capabilities? And if they could take it to that next level, which is if you invest here, then going forward, you'll have the ability to keep up with technology as it advances because you've got the core modernized enough so that you've got all the connections that you need. So it's that ability to transcend the power of technology into the power of technology. Logies, an enabler of the business strategy. That's number one. Number two, can they be articulate when they talk? Jim, you've heard him every time. Has said, you know there are three things that I want to share with you. Boom, boom, boom. And then let the board or let the committee take you deeper into areas that you want to discuss. And then last but not least is just the ability to relate, think on their feet. If they're going to revert to their presentation anytime a question is asked, I'd like to see someone be able to pivot with the question and then take it into a different direction. So those three .
speaker 2: things is what I look for. Can we stay on that? How does a cio get best prepared for that exchange? Maybe walk through a little bit of what that exchange can be like and what separates good performance from an opportunity to improve next time.
speaker 4: So I'll say the first thing is the ability to recognize an opportunity. Many times, if you're sitting in the boardroom and you're letting the business leaders describe how they're doing or initiatives that they've got launched, and if you wait for the technology conversation to be raised before you speak up, then you've missed an opportunity because smart cio's, they recognize that a concept is being described. That person can weigh in and say, and remember when you made this investment, this is what it's translating into or remember when we talked about these capabilities, then these capabilities through what's making this possible. So just recognizing opportunity is something for me that good cxs or cios always take advantage of. And the second thing that I would say is it's not always what happens in the boardroom. It is as you take breaks, it is as you have meals. It is as if you have receptions. There is always an opportunity to engage on a different level with board members so that they see you talking about the business and gaining confidence in yourself and your ability to be one of the thought leaders of the company.
speaker 2: Thanks, erijim. Would love to hear your thoughts as you prepare folks on your team for the great opportunity .
speaker 3: to spend time with the board. When you come from a technology background is we've talked about it, you can get lost in the technology. And so I think one of the ways you get prepared for a board discussion is to start to talk about technology, but not in technology words. We've had three priorities within nationwide related to technology to help deliver business strategy. Behind those three concepts, there's 100 different technologies that we believe are emerging in a way that we can provide new products and services, that we can enable new distribution channels, that we can drive productivity in the way we deliver products. I think it starts with us being able to talk about the technologies in terms like that, that everybody understands that they can apply to their product or their process or their service and not get lost in the technology. The second is you've got to get comfortable with metrics and data and be comfortable being transparent about what's working and what's not. I think sometimes you can get into a trap, especially when you're in a bored situation of wanting to paint a rosy picture of everything. And one of the things I do appreciate about our board, they recognize these things are always hard and they don't always go well and that there are hurdles that you have to go over. And so that's the other piece that I always coach people, is while you're gonna to communicate in terms that are understandable to everybody in the room and that are not mired in the technology, be transparent about what's also not working. That actually provides you a lot of credibility. And frankly, what we forget is the board is there to help. They have vast amounts of experiences from other companies and other organizations. And by being transparent, sometimes the answer to your problem is in the room. You've just got to give them a chance to engage with you. So that's what I would add to what Sarah said. I love that answer.
speaker 2: Could be in the room. I think that's a wonderful Turner phrase. Sarah, you both have mentioned how at the core of this conversation, business value is really what's going to unlock support and perspective. In what ways is business value most successfully .
speaker 4: communicated? One of my favorite slides on each section in the materials that Jim's team prepares is we start with the business problem, the current situation, and then we talk about technology capabilities, and then we talk about what will be different for the customer, for the agent, for the associate that has to work with it. And then below that, we actually translate it to increased revenue, reduced cost, reduced cycle time, increased customer satisfaction. So if we start with the business problem, then go into the tech capabilities, then go into how it's going to be different for our end users and then talk about the actual results in either revenues, savings cycle, time satisfaction, those kinds of things.
speaker 2: Jim, has that been a relatively straightforward opportunity with your team in terms of their resonating with that message? And so it allows that to come .
speaker 3: through pretty seamlessly. It is. So one of the things I really am proud of my team is they can articulate the business outcomes about the strategies that business students they support as well as anyone can. So you would be hard pressed in many cases to pick them out as the technology leader in the room if you heard them talking about their business. But the other thing I would say, Lou, that is interesting to me is the technical capabilities of our business leaders are increasing. So I think the other thing that is demonstrating the value of technology is the fact that more and more, it's not the technology leader talking about it, that it is the business leader. The business unit leader is talking about the impact that technology is having on the productivity of the organization or how it's opening up new abilities to launch new products and services that they couldn't launch before. The business unit leaders have, in some cases, taken over the conversation, and the technology team is there to be their Copilot, if you will, on how they're going to deliver. But I think it's actually a really big compliment when you see the value being discussed from the business unit leader.
speaker 4: not the technology leader. We've actually had customers, potential customers say to us, we couldn't tell who was the tech person, who was the business leader, which always to me says, as Jim said, both sides are increasing their bilingualism, as it were. The second, though, which I'm really proud of, the leadership team at nationwide, we actually have had conversations on when do the technology advancements go faster than the human resource development, about the capabilities of the talent of the organization to fully utilize the technology benefits. And we've had some leaders be very Frank with us to talk about the people process needing to be as strong as the technology process are when you launch new ways of doing business. And we've gotten stronger. I think that we're always more mindful now of the processes that have to be developed in parallel to make sure that we have a fully capable associate or end user or agent that is able to take advantage of the capabilities that are being brought forward by these investments.
speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, because at the end of the day, people are going to do work differently than they do it today using these capabilities. And if there's an adoption issue, then the business value won't be realized. Jim, you talked about being in a position to have a more fulsome conversation around risk and really being a lot more strategic as well as making sure that the operations are running smoothly. How should that relationship between the cio and the ciso be portrayed to the board? And your thoughts on the benefits of having the ciso present during those board meetings?
speaker 3: Lou, it's a fantastic question and one that I'm really passionate about. If I didn't feel comfortable having my ciso in the room with the board, then I would say I didn't have the right cso. It is so incredibly important, not just from the cybersecurity angle, but from the overall risk management angle of how technology is enabling the business to have them in the room. When we're talking about fraud, the csos in the room when we're talking about cybersecurity, they're in the room when we're talking about resiliency of business process, they're in the room. We're talking about crisis management. My cso is in the room. And so I think it's incredibly important also, you know there's been this discussion of where should the cso report? And I'm a strong believer they should report to this technology leader. And if there is a concern about that, then I go to the second part, which is then you've got the wrong technology leader. How we've managed that inof nationwide is our cso reports out to the board at every board meeting. He sits in the executive session with the business innovation and Technology Council and I at every board meeting. And if he and I ever disagree, we have a relief valve between our chief legal officer, who I told the cso on day one when he joined, if he and I ever disagree, that's his relief valve to be able to go arbitrate. If there's a decision that he disagrees with what I've made. So I think that's the other part is I have to leave my ego at the door with my cso, and I've got to be really comfortable that they can have an open and transparent dialogue with the board about risk and frankly, with our whole leadership team about how risk .
speaker 4: is playing out inside the company. Yeah. And I would add to that, not at nationwide, but I know some cxs and cios are reticent. They want to be seen as the person. It's actually in their best interest to have the cso in the boardroom or at the committee level. This gives you the opportunity to say, I'm not the cyber guy, I am the business thought leader and I am broader than just cyber. So for any cio or cso that's listening, that's a little reticent about doing it, assuming, as Jim said, that you've got the right cso, this is an opportunity for you to show that you have capabilities beyond that.
speaker 2: Sarah, as you were describing the committee, the evolution of the committee is, again, in my experience, that's a leading practice. Any guidance that you might have on why a committee such as yours is so important to organizsuccess?
speaker 4: So Lou, excellent question. I currently sit on three boards, three prior to this on my current boards. Two have technology committees. One does not. And the first thing I have to say, it is really is dependent on the needs of the business. Every industry is in a different spot. Every business is in a different spot. But the guiding principle for me is, do you have best in class sight of risk? And if you're going to make a decision around making significant investments, one of the companies, as Jim described, the genesis for this committee is there is no other existing committee that can really have oversight of that huge capital spend with the rigor that needs to be taking place. The other company lodged it because of what was happening in the industry and at that company in terms of having to have protection. And so there's always a critical decision that has to be made. The most important thing that a board has to decide is if I'm going to have best in class risk oversight, do my existing committees give me the ability or the bandwidth to have adequate oversight? And at the end, if it's possible, it can stay with the audit committee, if it's possible, it can stay with a risk committee. But at the end, if you're adding bandwidth into an existing committee that's already overstretched, then you really need to think about the wisdom of having a Technology Committee that will take care of not only of the spend, as it were, not only of the operations, as Jim described, but really making sure that you're keeping pace with the innovation and the disruption that's happening, disintermediation that's happening from these technological evolutions. And we haven't talked about it. Covid really changed what end users now are expecting in terms of the reality of having things delivered right away. And so if you're having to rethink your business process, Jim, I'm going to quote you and saying make sure you optimize before you digitize. But if you're already optimized and you're recognizing the value of technology, you have to ask yourself, as a board, do we have best in class risk oversight if we stick it into an .
speaker 2: existing committee? Well said, Jim. You serve on boards as well. And we're seeing more and more technologists, technology executives in board service. And I would say that's a newer trend. Would love to get your your thoughts again. Being in the boardroom, the role that you others like you are having on the discussions and how that's ultimately benefit to the company overall.
speaker 3: I think if you kind of go back a couple of years, why you saw more people with the technology background coming into boards, it was really around the risk management side of how do you manage the resiliency of the organization. But I'd say it's really evolving on the public company that I sit on. We talk about the transformation of the company. We talk about how technology logies driving new channels of distribution that weren't available to all them before. We talk about how technology is providing new products and services that can be launched in the marketplace. We talk about the productivity that we've been able to get with technology and where we believe it's going to go. And as you think about the role that artificial intelligence is increasingly playing, what the future of the workforce is going to look like as digital workers evolve. And so I think that's why you're gonna to see more and more people with the technology background being part of the technical skills maup of a board. It's going to be for those reasons and those transformational elements that require that expertise at the board level.
speaker 2: Well, I'd love to thank you both for being here. Tech influential is all about understanding how to maximize the impact of this capability on customers and commercial results. And again, that bilingual relationship that's critical, and that was on full display here. So as you both know, our show is called tech fluential. And I'd love to get a sense for what that word means to you. Sarah.
speaker 4: why don't you kick us off? Tech proential to me means you can be influential in any environment in describing what needs to happen in the evolution of industry today with the incredible escalation of capabilities that are coming from technology.
speaker 2: Wonderful, Jim.
speaker 3: How about you? The number one skill that I look for when I'm hiring any leader is influence. And so I like to think tech fluential is about how do you take influence and use your influence to help people understand the transformation that can be driven with technology. I tell everybody.
speaker 2: I think there's never been a more exciting time to be a technologist. So while said, and we're seeing it show up in lots of places, especially the boardroom, it was wonderful to see the relationship, the mutual respect between the both of you. And this topic is front of mine for many of our listeners. And so you've really given some outstanding perspectives and food for thought for them as they contemplate what comes next. So thank you both for being here.
speaker 3: Thank you. Lou. Thanks, Lou.
speaker 1: Lou. Thank you. That was great. What were some of the key insights you took away from that conversation?
speaker 2: You know, thanks, Brian. A lot of great insights there. Hard to distill it down, but a few things rose to the top for me. Yet again, we hear how critical it is to be speaking the language of business strategy and commercial value, and again, the need for bilingual capabilities. One of the wonderful turns of phrase that they both touched on, though, was success. Esses, when you can't tell who the technologist in the room is, and they shared some wonderful stories around that. And I think that speaks to sort of the highest level of being tecght .
speaker 1: influential. One of the points that I thought was really interesting was this link between understanding that investments in technology are also investments in people, the need to have the right support structure, the right talent to be able to make that technology deliver value. How easy is it to forget that part of the process and what are the best ways to make sure it doesn't get overlooked?
speaker 2: We do see that, I mean, ultimately, technology is a way to do work differently. And so if there hasn't been thought given to what the work was before, what the work is going to be tomorrow, how you're going to do it and getting people excited and motivated to understand why that's useful to them, there's going to be an adoption problem. And when change management and education becomes a line item on a work plan, rather than at the fiber of what we're doing, which is really transforming the nature of work and helping people understand that work, why it matters and how they're gonna to do it differently and why it's gonna to be interesting and more exciting for them, that's a very different conversation. And so I think it's important to remember that technology is a thing without people using it, it doesn't generate value or the business value or many of the things that we're talking about here. And that's the last mile. It's about who's going to use it and how they're going to use it if it becomes something to do rather than at the heart of what we're trying to accomplish. I think there's a potential that it's gonna .
speaker 1: to be less successful than youlike. One of the themes that I think came through very clearly, and the ability for technology leaders to speak business, business leaders to speak technology, how do leaders work together? What changes about the dynamic when there becomes more overlap in the understanding of what people are doing, when jobs don't seem so specialized? There's a couple of things .
speaker 2: that come to mind, and I think you've probably heard me say this in some context, but some of it starts with language and the perspectives that you have when you use certain language. And so I encourage my clients, my technology executives, to not refer to the business. They're all in the business, right? They work for a company. They all work together. They have different expertise. They have different roles. I think we also heard from both of them that it's important to resist the temptation to get lost in the technology. It's about why we're doing it. And I think when the conversation anchors on why we're doing it, what's going to be different tomorrow, what's going na happen when we're finished, I think everybody understands that. And then, look, we've all got different plays. We're going to run wherever we sit to make that happen. And I trust you, you trust me, and we're going to meet afterwards and talk about how it could have gone better. So I think it's that mindset shift. And I think it is the language, again, that has come up in most of the episodes that we've had a chance to talk to.
speaker 1: Thanks, Lou. Looking forward to episode seven where we'll continue to explore the role of technology leadership and what it means to be tech influential. Thanks to everyone for listening.
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