speaker 1 [00:00:00-00:00:10]: Those cursors, it seems like a small touch, but it's the first time I have seen AI humanized. It feels like there's someone there. It's crazy, it's just a cursor, but it's like so.
speaker 2 [00:00:10-00:00:13]: much more we can do. Just seeing these cursors here is like pretty amazing.
speaker 1 [00:00:13-00:00:18]: As soon as you click on Pen File inside Cursor, it opens in this like visual editor.
speaker 2 [00:00:18-00:00:19]: That's my point too.
speaker 1 [00:00:19-00:00:32]: dude. So see how fast it was. This is Composer. It's really amazing. Here we go. So this is the generated basically React Next JS website from that design. We launched full G8 weeks ago, got 100,000 users now.
speaker 2 [00:00:33-00:01:04]: It shows you that actually that like craft and care still matter. I think I would not be as blown away if those cursors were not on the screen. It wasn't like an Asian chat right below. Okay, hey, everyone, I'm really excited today to host Tom. Tom is the CEO of Pencil, which is uh generally one of the most exciting AI pros I've ever seeing. Like it basically is a product where a swarmmer of AI agents can design anything you want. And yeah, I was blown away by I was generally blown away. Um So welcome Tom.
speaker 1 [00:01:04-00:01:07]: Hi, everyone, thanks Peter for having me. This is exciting.
speaker 2 [00:01:07-00:01:23]: Yeah, you know, i i showed your product to my designer and then she shared with all the design group and they were like, hmm, should we like be worried about your jobs or so? Yeah, dude, it was, it was amazing. Yeah.
speaker 1 [00:01:23-00:01:24]: awesome.
speaker 2 [00:01:24-00:01:28]: Why don't we just show the people here? Like how amazing this did you want to like just try it?
speaker 1 [00:01:29-00:02:23]: Just gonna share my screen real quick and. This is pencil. It's an app that works on windows linux mac. And we also have plugins for vs code, cursor anti-gravity windsurf and all of the vs code based ids, you know, and it works really well with cloud code and codex and all of the existing agents and other people actually like my surprise, they want to bring their own agents. So they've been using it with open code and. All sorts of different cli that I've even never heard about, you know? So you can essentially like make it yours, plug in your own agent, you know? But you know, this is how it looks like. So it's like a design tool, so you can create like a frame and you can like manually start designing here. But like now in this age of AI, why don't we invite you know AI to design something for us? So what do we want to design? Peter, tell me.
speaker 2 [00:02:24-00:02:32]: ,you know, I'VE BE to like a lot of really COUNT and PLES, and I want to keep like a TRA travel log of PL that I've been, you know, like yeah, okay, mostOST placesES are more fun thanAN AmericaERICA.
speaker 1 [00:02:33-00:02:56]: SO yeah, SO designIGN a mobile APP for UM you know travel LO and booking or whateverE, UM use BEAUTIF imagery and photos of C cities in OCEania, maybe. Sure. And you know, do we want to like.
speaker 2 [00:02:56-00:02:58]: you got turn on the you got turn the swarm mode.
speaker 1 [00:02:59-00:03:57]: Yeah, yeah, let's do that, you know, so you can obviously let one agent design. But like one of the most exciting things that we have recently shipped is that you can use pearl agents. So we can just choose the amount of agents we want, you know, like let's actually use six, you know, so design three screens to agents working on each screen. Yeah. And then, you know, you can also pick like a style guide that you want to go with, or you can let the agent to pick one for you. So let's, you know, let's get surprised actually. Let's get surprised, you know, it's gonna pick something for us. So now it's gonna start the agent, it's gonna analyze the request and it's going to create a to-do list for us and it's gonna pick a style guide and it's gonna distribute the work across all of these agents, you know. So now we have cloud of 4.6 working and it's gonna start these like sub agents and they're gonna. Start communicating to each other and start designing for us, you know?
speaker 1 [00:03:57-00:04:07]: So yeah, now we can see the cursor phantom over there and it's gonna start the agents and yes, they're designing.
speaker 2 [00:04:07-00:04:11]: So it's gonna start six sub agents, right? And you get them. Yeah, like amber.
speaker 1 [00:04:12-00:04:27]: Yeah, actually like a lot of people ask, like can we like customize the names of these agents? You know, so now I'm working on this feature where you will be able to name them, you know, as whoever you want, you know, maybe your friends or whoever. So yeah.
speaker 2 [00:04:27-00:04:36]: should be fun. Yeah, dude, like I mean, just just seeing this, like seeing these cursors here is like pretty, pretty amazing. Yeah.
speaker 1 [00:04:36-00:05:20]: Yeah, you know, like it's really interesting because like we had this whole parallelism kind of built and I was like, man, but I have like no idea which agent is working on what, you know, so even for debugging purposes, I was like, why don't we just like put a cursors there so we can like see who is working on what and then we can like debug if something went wrong, you know, and like we build it and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is magic. It feels like. It's so humanized, you know, like like ai usually is just like very it doesn't feel like, you know, one of us essentially which it isn't, you know, but like these cursors like what working on that screen on the canvas, it really feels like there's like actually someone behind it, you know, making these changes and.
speaker 2 [00:05:20-00:05:24]: is it just generally code that looks like this or is that is like doing something else?
speaker 1 [00:05:25-00:06:23]: So it's generating basically like a descriptor for the design, and then what you can do, you can essentially ask it what kind of code you want to convert it into. Because like we wanted to make sure that it's sort of platform agnostic. Okay, for instance, like this, you want to convert into Swift iOS or Kotlin because it's a mobile app or React Native. So it wouldn't really make sense to like generate this in like HTML and CSS because like this will go to Swift, you know, or whatever. so we have this platform agnostic file format, we call it . pen. it's essentially just json-based format. we wanted to really build this format to be like agentic from the ground up. and yeah, so we have a documentation for that format on our website. you can build plugins around it. people have started building all sorts of different converters. we have seen a plugin that converts . pen file into figma and into laval and into like all sorts of different things, you know, and so on. so yeah, got it.
speaker 1 [00:06:24-00:06:33]: and we'll get to that, you know, so maybe after this we can design a website for this. And ask it to actually generate code for us and look at that.
speaker 2 [00:06:33-00:07:26]: This episode is brought to you by Linear. When engineers use tools like Cursor, Clock Code, and Codex, a lot of work happens invisibly. Someone can go from a bug report in Slack to a shipped fix without creating any record of what happened outside of the code editor. And that's fine for speed, but it makes coordination harder as you scale. Linear integrates with the very best agent coding tools directly, like Cursor and Codex. That way, anyone can see what an agent is working on and who assigned them to the task. You get the speed of agents without losing visibility across the team. Product teams at OpenAI, Ramp, and Block are all using Linear to collaborate with AI agents. And I use Linear myself to run my creator business. So check it out at Linear. app/agents. That's Linear. app/agents. Now back to our episode. And how are you getting the images? Is like using nano banana or something?
speaker 1 [00:07:26-00:07:39]: Yeah, yeah, you know, you can you can plug in all sorts of different image generators. We have a few of them and we're always like checking out what's the latest best, you know, and plug the best one in there. So yeah.
speaker 2 [00:07:39-00:07:48]: this is great. You should, you know what you do? You should introduce some more banter between these agents right now, just kind of like saying, You should have them like argue with each other.
speaker 1 [00:07:48-00:07:57]: yeah, it'll be really cool. Yeah, they should actually speak, you know? Why not? Like we should plug in some 11 labs or something, and they should just talk to you.
speaker 2 [00:07:58-00:08:03]: Yeah, that'll be amazing. And this swarm feature is pretty new, right? Like it only was released like last week or something.
speaker 1 [00:08:03-00:08:19]: Yeah, actually this week... It I mean this week has been so long, you know? So much has happened, but it went out on Tuesday and it already went viral, and you've seen it right? And thank you so much for the. For the tweet, by the way, I was like so shook when I saw it, so it was amazing.
speaker 2 [00:08:20-00:08:26]: No, yeah, it's amazing. Like I think maybe previously the product only had one cursor, I guess.
speaker 1 [00:08:26-00:09:29]: it didn't have any cursor, it was just like an agent putting things in. You could run like multiple chats and they would like start working kind of in parallel, but it wasn't like the true parallelism. It was useful when you wanted to like. Spin out a different variation or something like that, and like so, for instance, like here, what I can do is like I can now basically say like actually redesign this into like this style. So what I can now do is like redesign the screens into this style, and it's gonna go and it's gonna you know read the style guide and and start working on it, and then obviously you know in the demo that I was showing. Online, we had like agents working on social media graphics, website and mobile app, sort of in tandem at the same time. So like you can go really easily within like minutes from just an idea into something where you can just go like defaults.
speaker 1 [00:09:30-00:10:09]: And one of the things that where this is really interesting is that sometimes you don't even know what you want to build, and like people today like really quickly jump into cloud or like you know one of these uh bi coding apps and start building an app. Like you don't even know if you want to build it, you know? And like what if there's like multiple things that you wanted to do actually completely differently and so on. So yeah, think of pencil as this like visual planning mode of sorts. You know how you have like plan mode in cloud code and in cursor? So this is like a visual planning mode where you can like visually plan things, and then you can sort of... Once you decided this is what I want, you know, then sure awesome, like build me this.
speaker 2 [00:10:10-00:10:30]: Yeah, this is interesting because I think any real designer is not just going to design one thing. Like they want to diverge and explore a whole bunch of different options, and then they kind of converge into what they actually want, right? So yeah, so yeah, so like, you know, being able to explore different designs, like ideally actually, you kind of, I can actually look at the design side by side and just like pick one.
speaker 1 [00:10:30-00:11:13]: Exactly, you know, and this is the constant feedback that I've been hearing from other folks, you know, and I think. A lot of the web coding platforms, they basically are very like linear and sort of serial, like you do one thing and you click in one thing, but like actually you want like 20 different variations, compare them side by side, maybe divert branch and so on. And like I have seen tons of design files throughout my life, and like all the designers, they have like crazy mass in their files because it's exploratory mode, you know? You're just like ideating, you're trying different things, you're comparing, you're copy pasting a lot. And then once you decide you're like this is it, then you make a spec and strip like a PRD around the app.
speaker 2 [00:11:14-00:11:33]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and... and anyway, do I'm just watching this now? I'm still blown away. I do think I do think the cursors in the UI makes a huge difference, like it makes a huge difference because if I use clock code, I can theoretically do this too, but it's just generally a bunch of code that I can't see. But you know, being able to see this happen is like a game changer.
speaker 1 [00:11:34-00:12:13]: Yeah, it's it's you know, like it's actually really hard. I mean like sure like a lot of these platforms that are now going into parallel mode, you know? Yeah, they're like assigning different roles to different agents and so on. But what i wanted really to do is to have parallelism with same roles of agents, you know, in a way that they're doing non-conflicting changes. You know, did they figure out how to split up the work in parallel in front of me? Still use the same really powerful model like opus, but do it like three times faster because they were able to essentially split the work.
speaker 2 [00:12:14-00:12:29]: Yeah. And this is something that i like human cash. You look at and understand, you know, like, you know, if i use call code, i can spin up like three different terminals and. Have them do the work, but I have no idea what the hell is going on until they actually finish the work. But right here, I can see.
speaker 1 [00:12:30-00:12:43]: yeah, exactly. And then you're like okay cool, build me this, and now we can go for the coffee and come back later because you know they have the plan, they know what to build, you know? So yeah, and that's a huge difference, the world of difference.
speaker 2 [00:12:44-00:12:48]: You actually have a website, right? You have another file with a website.
speaker 1 [00:12:48-00:13:14]: So i mentioned in the beginning that you can use pencil with all sorts of different tools and one of them is cursor and cursor is really interesting because it also allows you to use like different models and you can sort of like contrast and compare. So here we are inside of cursor and i have this. Sort of file that I have built previously.
speaker 2 [00:13:15-00:13:21]: and well hang on, this is actually inside. Okay, so you just opened coffee shop pen file in cursor.
speaker 1 [00:13:22-00:13:27]: yeah? Exactly. So as soon as you click on pen file inside cursor, it opens in this like visual editor.
speaker 2 [00:13:28-00:13:30]: And that's my point too, dude. Yeah.
speaker 1 [00:13:31-00:13:56]: So we have built our custom editor essentially inside cursor, and this is where we started initially, you know? And then we started building these apps around it and so on. So now this works in all of these apps, so it's basically a design tool baked into cursor, you know? And all you have to do for the app is to just go to extension store and find pencil and install it, and it will just start working right away.
speaker 2 [00:13:56-00:13:58]: Okay, so how do you? So now we have the same. Yes.
speaker 1 [00:13:58-00:14:27]: how do we actually build this thing? Yeah. So like one of the really cool things here is that i can use the crystal agent here. So i have like all the models here like composer for instance, you know, and composer man, it flies, it's kind of amazing. It's super fast. So for instance, like let's say i want to turn this selected frame into light mode, okay? And i'm gonna like. Hit enter, it's gonna scan that and it's gonna uh start working on that. Oh wow!
speaker 2 [00:14:29-00:14:32]: Okay, so like the agent can actually interact with this stop pen file.
speaker 1 [00:14:32-00:15:33]: Yeah, exactly. So see how fast it was, you know? Like this is composer, it's really amazing, you know? So like that's sort of like the flexibility you get, you know, when you're working within cursor and within other tools, you know, you can like sort of mix and match different models and so on and so on and so on. And it's kind of nice workflow as well. And now. What we can do is turn this into code, you know, which is obviously the step where we wanted to get in the first place, you know? Now we have designed everything and we're like okay, I want this in the code. So for that, I'm just going to open a new chat. Let's say I pick Opus this time, and I'm just going to say... And I can you can actually copy this and paste it here. So now it says Coffee Shop Pan Homepage, so it's the name of that frame. And I just say like. Generate code. For this frame. In react. Tailwind.
speaker 1 [00:15:34-00:16:04]: What was it? No js. Sorry, next js. And, And run it on port 808080 in the browser, okay? And now it's going to scan it, it's going to also like analyze all of these different parts of it, and it's going to start generating code for it from that visual representation, you know? And you can see... And this is like the Crystal Agent here.
speaker 2 [00:16:04-00:16:08]: Okay, so now it's actually generating the HTML and everything.
speaker 1 [00:16:08-00:17:12]: Yeah, and I was generating the HTML and React and everything. And like honestly, you can decide you maybe already have an existing code base, and this is where like Pencil. Power really comes together or to fruition because like you might already have like existing code base and the idea about pen file really is that it's this, you know, json i can like right click on it and i can open it in in the editor here so you can see it's just a json. So all the okay. Yeah. And all the agents. Can read it and can write it, and it was the like original idea that this is like agentic, new agentic format, or design format built for agents from the ground up. So, the idea is that this file goes into git. And in the git, like either in the cloud or with your coworkers, anybody can work with that file. You can create a library of components, and so on and so on and so on. So while this is working, I wanted to show you actually a couple more things, so you can set up variables for things, which is basically just like a CSS file, you know?
speaker 1 [00:17:13-00:18:06]: And you can use these variables across the document, you know? So at this point, it just keeps using the same things. Also, we have like bunch of design components in here. This is for instance. Chat CN，and you can also just like change it to dark mode and change it to like some different tone，and maybe you want like a violet or green sort of accent for that，and these are like。 Tons of different chat components，and you can so right away you can start designing with them in here，and yeah，now it's running the website，so let's see what's going to happen，and here we go，so this is the generated basically react next js website from. From that design that we had here, you know? And yeah.
speaker 2 [00:18:06-00:18:14]: that's pretty man. Yeah, and then if I... Let's say I want to change the title or something, or move some button around. So I just go back to the pen file.
speaker 1 [00:18:14-00:18:25]: right? You can go to the pen file, you can change it there. You can go to code, you can also go and you know use the cursor tools here. But you know, this is basically the sorts of truth, you know? So yeah.
speaker 2 [00:18:25-00:18:28]: but but but if I change it in the code, does it reflect in the pen file?
speaker 1 [00:18:28-00:18:42]: Is it linked? Well, you have to ask LLM at that point, you know, to update it in the design because you change it in the code, you know? So like there's no like life real-time change, you know? Like ideally, maybe down the road, who knows. But right now, we just ask element to tweak it.
speaker 2 [00:18:42-00:18:49]: Yeah. Okay, before you were showing me the chassis and so this is a bunch of design systems saved here somewhere.
speaker 1 [00:18:49-00:19:40]: Yeah. So we have a bunch of design systems and there are these like pretty advanced components. Like this is a table, it has slots so and so on. But anyways, we have these like prompt nodes which are like ready-made sort of sticky notes with different prompts that you can save into the documents. And i'm just gonna stop this. It's already like finished and i can like prepare for my colleagues, certain prompts to generate something or i have like a team of pms or designers on my team and i want to make sure that they, you know, come from the same set of rules. So yeah, you know, i just click run and this is gonna send it to the crystal agent and it's gonna start designing on this kind of it's gonna read. The components it needs to see how it is like reading things, and now it is going to start composing those things on on this screen right here.
speaker 2 [00:19:41-00:19:42]: 0 Using the components.
speaker 1 [00:19:42-00:19:44]: yeah, using the components exactly. You know.
speaker 2 [00:19:44-00:19:46]: all right, dude, you blow my mind again.
speaker 1 [00:19:48-00:20:40]: So here we can say like mode, and I can also turn it into dark mode, and also like while it is designing, I can you know start editing that which. You know, you know that, but like this, this isn't, this isn't like obvious for most of the people that like you can sort of like under the hands of the agent already touch the design and start changing it. And this is probably the biggest sort of shift in like how we think about this whole thing because when like a typical vibe coding app creates something, it's not like you can go in there and start like changing it in real time. You have to like always wait until it's done and and so on. And it kind of gets you out of the flow, whereas like this canvas workflow keeps you in the flow. And that's such a major difference between like this workflow and the other workflows.
speaker 2 [00:20:41-00:20:47]: Yeah, it's like a pain to ask you have to prompt AI to change some text or like move some stuff around. So it's better just like using yourself.
speaker 1 [00:20:47-00:21:17]: Yeah, yeah. And that's where this idea actually started. I was like, I want to be able to. Draw some stuff and tell agent to build me this because it's so much faster for myself and many other people to just draw a button versus like describe what the padding should look like and the colors and style and all of these things should feel like because like oftentimes you don't even know you have to like see it first and then tweak it and then say this is what I want.
speaker 2 [00:21:18-00:21:30]: Yeah. Um, and and dude, like i feel like one of the major innovations is this pen file, like i'm surprised. So it's just json and it has like a bunch of like, so it has like numbers for padding and stuff.
speaker 1 [00:21:30-00:21:44]: Yeah, essentially it's like a full description of think of this is like agent pdf or like if pdf was designed or build, you know, in this new era of ai agents, this is probably how it would look like.
speaker 2 [00:21:45-00:21:56]: Got it okay，this is this is awesome now now I'm gonna ask you about like the history of this product dude because it's like super impressive um how long have you been working on this like when you start working on.
speaker 1 [00:21:56-00:22:59]: this yeah we started like early last year and essentially um i was just poking around with cursor and cloud code and all of these tools i was building something else like this ah project and. And realized like it's so much energy to write the ui to the chat and explain it to the agent. How things should look and feel. Why can't i just draw it? And i looked around in different marketplaces for vs code and so on and i couldn't find anything. So quickly put together prototype, put it out. You got like 1 million views across like linkedin and x. And i was like, wow, this is it seems like people have a similar problem so to speak and we got into a 16th speed run went through speed round and yeah, the rest is just a story. We launched like the full g8 weeks ago, got 100,000 users now and yeah, it seems like it's a big problem for people.
speaker 2 [00:23:00-00:23:07]: Uh,one hundred000 users, is it mostly like um like designers,OPreneERS or companies or all of the aboveVE?
speaker 1 [00:23:08-00:24:05]: Yeah, this was also like surprising to me. So I think MarkDISON was just recently talking about his Mexican SToff between like VMMS and designers and engineersERS, you probably heardARD it, right? Yeah? And I think we're essentially all becoming makers, designers graduatingAT into design engineers, engineers now wanting to T tackle more things than just code ES essentiallyTI just like managing and runningNING. Full projects or full sections of projects. And now PMs are feeling like so empowered to be able to create. And also like it goes way beyond that. A friend of mine just recently called me and he was like, man, I love pencils. I've been using it. I was like, what? You? He's a marketer, you know, like he's a guy who works as a marketing guy within this company. And he's like, I love it. Like, I picked up Claude Code immediately, by the way, Claude Code in desktop app, you know, not even in terminal.
speaker 1 [00:24:06-00:25:01]: And he uses that with Pencil, and he completely rebuilt website marketing materials, ads, you know, PDFs. They use like technical specs for salespeople and so on. I was like, wow. So essentially. It's this AI design canvas right in middle of everything, and you kind of make it yours honestly. Like obviously we have like advanced components and all sorts of different things for enterprises. We have like enterprises using that for for this specific purpose to like convert their design systems into pen format and make sure that it lives in the git. This is the source of truth for everybody now. But there is like more and more of these people who like had no preconception of like coding, and are now picking up coding thanks to pencil as well.
speaker 2 [00:25:01-00:25:11]: I mean, this is so much of of poor fun than you know, writing code by hand, or even as a designer like making all those layers and like drawing some boxes. Yeah, this is way more fun.
speaker 1 [00:25:11-00:25:47]: man. And oftentimes like so, how how many people told me like. Man, like I had like five projects in a drawer, I didn't get to them, and now I'm finally like thanks to pencil, like seeing them through because it's so much fun just like see what it could look like. And with a lot of these other tools, it's you know like you run into these errors like couldn't compile something, and like a lot of the people are deterred by that, and like they just give up versus like in pencil, you can just see it doesn't make sense. Cool, you know, let's pursue it fur doesn't make sense. Fine, you scrape it, you know, but at least now you know.
speaker 2 [00:25:47-00:26:01]: Yeah, and there's like so many vibe coding tools out there, but yours is one of the first that actually is visual first. And like i think that makes a lot of difference like and do you know if like i can actually collaborate with other people in the same too, you know, along with the ai agents.
speaker 1 [00:26:01-00:26:21]: Yeah, we don't have like multiplayer per se right now. Not yet. Yeah. And but what you can what how we have seen people mostly collaborate is through good. And also, like if you talk to a lot of designers, they tell you that it's like a great way to hand off things to devs and so on. So yeah.
speaker 2 [00:26:21-00:26:25]: yeah, okay dude. Well, I mean, were you always an entrepreneur? Or I should done my research.
speaker 1 [00:26:26-00:27:28]: but yeah, yeah, yeah. Before this, I worked on this app called Around. It was like a video conferencing app. Okay, it was like these little circles. On a desktop, you would use them on top of like different multiplayer tools. It was very popular during COVID. You could like filter on and so on. You like games in there. A lot of startups and teams were using it for collaboration. It was more fun than Zoom. And Mirror acquired that. And yeah, and you know, even before that, I had another startup in like 3D Avatar Space. And before that, I worked at Adobe for like a decade, you know? So. And before that, yeah, I was an evangelist for uh for like the creative cloud products, and I worked on design tools as well, you know? So got it. And before that, like my parents had a design agency, so when I was a kid, I would always like hang out with the designers uh in the design agency, and they would teach me how to use like different tools from like I started using Photoshop when I was like seven, then like Corel Draw, Illustrator, uh InDesign, PageMaker, all of these tools.
speaker 1 [00:27:28-00:28:30]: And eventually I was like, I don't like necessarily print design because like web was sort of like starting to happen in like late 90s. and so i started picking up all sorts of things like html and php and so on. and but eventually i fell in love with flash because it was like this first app where you could like design and code. yeah, at the same time. and i think for a lot of people, it really enabled them to be creative. and i think ever since flash, we haven't necessarily seen a similar paradigm where you would be like designing coding in one place. And i think now with vibe coding, it's starting to happen again, because suddenly it became like too complex in a way, like it was like all these frameworks, and like backends and so on. And now vibe coding brings a lot of that initial fun we used to have beginning times before all these complexities happened, and different platforms and screens and responsiveness and mobile and this and that, you remember all of that, right?
speaker 1 [00:28:30-00:28:58]: So, yeah, Up until this point and specifically up until this point, like maybe like november december last year, when these agents really started to become incredibly powerful. Now, anybody can build like a mobile app almost, you know, like not saying that like it's gonna be the best app in the world and they're gonna ship it like necessarily and it's gonna be secure and everything. But like they can build things and like that wasn't necessarily possible before. So yeah.
speaker 2 [00:28:58-00:29:12]: Okay, got it. Okay. Okay, just last question. Like, how are you building this company? Because, you know, you're right in the thick of things and how are you building this company with ai? You know, like ai agents or like, which part, which parts are humans touching, which parts is ai to do it?
speaker 1 [00:29:13-00:29:15]: Like, how are we building the company or.
speaker 2 [00:29:15-00:29:18]: or like the sorry, the product, the product? Yeah.
speaker 1 [00:29:18-00:29:47]: i would say like honestly like a lot of lot of the ideas. I mean, like I have like long history, long history of like building these kind of experiences and tools and products from the past. So it's like a personal passion almost, and I think for a lot of the folks on the team is the same thing. A bunch of us worked on kind of like similar things in the past or 2D and 3D tooling and so on. So it's a personal passion for a lot of us, yeah.
speaker 2 [00:29:47-00:30:00]: Okay，okay，awesome dude，what's next man？ You're gonna... you're gonna... may... may... maybe Adobe will try to acquire you. You better be careful. Yeah，well.
speaker 1 [00:30:01-00:30:21]: honestly，like there's so much unexplored now. Now that we have like shipped the swarm stuff，I was like wow，and now the whole world of like ideas is slowly。 Like opening in front of me, like those cursors. It seems like a small touch, but it's the first time I have seen AI humanized.
speaker 2 [00:30:22-00:30:22]: Yeah.
speaker 1 [00:30:22-00:30:31]: and it feels like there's someone there, you know? And it's crazy. It's just a cursor, you know? But it just makes you feel like that.
speaker 2 [00:30:31-00:30:45]: It shows you actually that like craft and care still matter. Because like I think I would not be as blown away if those cursors were not on the screen and there wasn't, there wasn't like an Asian chat right below. So yeah, actually still matters.
speaker 1 [00:30:45-00:30:52]: Yeah, it's really funny because like imagine that the agents just wrote that json and it would have to like reopen the file.
speaker 2 [00:30:52-00:30:54]: Like that was terrible.
speaker 1 [00:30:54-00:31:19]: and but that's essentially what happens in the background, right? Technically speaking. But like all of these little things matter so much and they make a world of difference, you know? So i just hope that like more and more people in the world are gonna start thinking. In a different in in this way about like LLMs that we can really give them face now, this face is this little cursor, but it's like so much more we can do.
speaker 2 [00:31:19-00:31:23]: Yeah, how do you make it transparent what they're doing and also give them some personality like that? That means a huge difference.
speaker 1 [00:31:23-00:31:28]: Yeah, totally like so many people like like I said, like so many people ask me like can I rename these agents?
speaker 2 [00:31:29-00:31:34]: Yeah, rename them, give them like little personalities, like you know, have a Peter PM agent that just ruins the design.
speaker 1 [00:31:34-00:31:38]: Yeah, or they can like fly to each other, like you know, do high fives and whatever.
speaker 2 [00:31:38-00:31:40]: Yeah, they can, they can come.
speaker 1 [00:31:40-00:31:46]: Yeah, yeah, they can like fly from like specific place. I mean, there is like so much stuff, so yeah.
speaker 2 [00:31:46-00:31:57]: All right, Tom, well, I'm blown away. I'll try to get John to let me invest in your company or something, but yeah. Yeah, keep going man, you have something very special here.
speaker 1 [00:31:57-00:32:00]: Yeah, I really appreciate it. It was great chatting. Thank you so much.
speaker 2 [00:32:00-00:32:01]: Yeah, thanks so much.
speaker 1 [00:32:01-00:32:34]: Yeah, and by the way, like if you want to download it, go to pencil. dev. You can also join our Discord. We have a button there: Join Discord. There's thousands of people discussing their creations, designs, they're sharing them with everyone, asking for features and reporting bugs, and all the great feedback is super much welcome. So yeah, let us know when you try and we're here for you and you can DM me on Discord or on X. So yeah, thank you so much.
speaker 2 [00:32:34-00:32:42]: Yeah, you better get your servers ready, man, because this is going to take off. So yeah, get ready. Yeah, all right, thanks. Cheers.